Let's be honest here Fred. Those are ALL assumptions that you have absolutely no facts to back up. You're opinion is based on irrationality. Fear opinions were also handed out when Pilot was trying to rebuild and none of those things came to pass. Not one. Give us some meat here for your opposition, not a "feeling" that things are going to change for the worse. I contend things will actually change for the better for that area and I can back that up by pointing you to all the information about this project that has already been published, here, in the paper, and on various websites.

Fred, I agree with you 200%. JP is just a Patch "bully" and keeps saying the say thing over and over for the last 6 months with no real facts. David, great video. You have compassion. Stay that way.

Patch bully here are some facts
1. If you add Interstate mall, Ramsey square, and Shannon Rose you get 600,000 sq feet. If local businesses will be shut down, why is main street Ramsey stores 100% occupied. I know you can't answer
2.Interstate Shopping Center is 350,000 sq feet. There is is small cut of an entrance on rt 17 south just before Franklin Tpk. Where is the nightmare traffic. I know please don't confuse me with facts.

JP,
>> Those are ALL assumptions that you have absolutely no facts to back up. <<

That is true for both sides. There are "forecasts" that traffic will NOT be worse and that there will be NO future net cost to the township in the years to come.

Both sides can cite "comparisons" to back up their respective predictions - but the actual FACTS won't be known until all is said and done. That's why it's prudent to be cautious and not simply assume that the "rosy" predictions must be more true than the "gloomy" ones.

>> I contend things will actually change for the better for that area and I can back that up by pointing you to all the information about this project that has already been published, here, in the paper, and on various websites. <<

And YOUR contentions are just as much based on YOUR hope that those published predictions are accurate - as the opposition's are based on the concern that the developers published rosy predictions are profit-motivated to get the council to change the zoning.

Whatever selective information the developer provides naturally has been carefully chosen to show the best possible outcome. On the other hand, the opposition has no personal gain. They are trying to avoid an uncertain outcome that cannot be undone once it's in place.

The only thing that's certain is what's NOW - what we will be facing 5 years form now with the mall in place is cearly subject of debate. That's why some feel that the original zoning should have stayed.

Hank,

>> Interstate Shopping Center is 350,000 sq feet. There is is small cut of an entrance on rt 17 south just before Franklin Tpk. Where is the nightmare traffic. <<

As anyone who uses the Interstate shopping center knows, MUCH of the traffic does NOT use that little Rt. 17 access, but instead traffic disperses to the north to Mahwah and south to Ramsey on Frankling Tpke "front" entrance, and through the same size "rear" entrance north and south on Island Road to both towns. All of these access points allow for all that local traffic from various parts of Mahwah and Ramsey to avoid what would like have become a bottle neck of the R17 access. In addition, both the Franklin Turnpike and the Island Road exits of the mall ALSO give access to Rt 17 in both directions - so there are actually THREE ways that Rt 17 Northbound and Southbound travellers can use.

Intentionally leaving out the majority of the traffic flow that never touches Rt 17 from your comparison shows a lack of integrity, i.m.o.

Andy if you want to discuss integrity let's discuss the "stop the mall" full page ads during the election. eg "20,000 more car trips daily" ahem.
If you add GSP, Bergen mall and Paramus Park its 3 1/2 million square feet on 400 acres. How do you compare that to Crossroads gimmee a break.

Andy, at least the developers have that much to back up what they say. What do you have for facts. Show us all the projections about how much of a disaster to the world this mall will be. Put your money where your mouth is.

They are not FACTS, they are PROJECTIONS. Both sides have them and both predict an alternate future - and I have no crystal ball to state which scenario will be true. Neither they, nor I, no you know!

Given THAT, I see no reason for anyone to summarily dismiss those people who have concerns.

What I know is that until early 2011, I personally was very content with this property being developed some day in line with the zoning that it was bought for: for office use - and so was apparently most everyone else in town (at least I don't recall even once hearing of anyone being dissatisfied with that prospect.)

A year later, there suddenly is a mall being forced upon a significant opposition in this town, and it objectively does raise all kind of concerns in people, that were not there before. Neither you nor I KNOW whether these concerns are warranted - we can choose to give more weight to one projection or the other - but the underlying fact is - that NOTHING is certain until AFTER this thing is in place and has operated for a few years and we can judge the cost to this town vs. its benefits.

So I do blame the council and then mayor for changing the zone when they could have left it alone - where most everyone was "content".

Andy, you'd (the Stop Mall group) have a lot more credibility and substance if you'd just go out and instead of whining about traffic, get donations, and hire an expert to actually study the project and back it up with numbers independently with recommendations as to how to alleviate any problems should they pre-exist. The developers have already addressed traffic patterns and flood control on their side and have designed for it.

Shows you how little you know:
I am NOT in any way "part" of the Stop-the-Mall group, don't know anyone who is, don't communicate with them, never attended any rallye/meetings (at least not intentionally/knowingly- it's always possible that people I know actually happen to be associated, just that I don't know and care). I don't even remember if I was ever asked to sign their petition last year.

But I disagree with the process of last year, I do agree that a referendum was a valid request, I do admit that I do have concerns whether this is beneficial to the township residents.

Sorry, I just lump all those against the mall as Stop Mall in general. Maybe I'll use a small "s" and "m" from now on. I can't see the project as not being beneficial to the area if it even creates one net job. And of course, it'll create many more.

Man's man is strong,focused,family first, omerta,word is his bond, makes his own fortune and likes Brookstone

It could have been developed/redeveloped under the original zoning. No one in town would have objections if the council/mayor simply "stuck" to the (master) plan (instead of allowing themselves to be railroaded to custom-zone this for one developer) and eventually there would have been another "Sharp" or Stryker, or may be a few corporate offices like we have up and down MacArthus Blvd between 17 and Darlington and the side streets.

That is so not true at all Andy. Some of the exact same people would complain about ANY new office development there for the exact same reason... more (imaginary) traffic. I've stated this before, there are just some people in town that don't want to see any new large development projects going up in town be it housing, condos, offices, or stores. If it wasn't the mall, it be something else, and we'd probably be having the same conversations. It always happens.

And that's why this mall protest is so stupid because there is nothing at that site to be effected, no houses, no condos, no nothing, not even trees, animals, or scenery. It's a perfect spot to do something with like this.

JP

a) you dismiss everyone else's predictions as not facual and argue why they can be used as an argument. Consequently, please point me to reports of any past protests about any office development at the Crossroads?

b) most people are NOT concerned with the impact of the Crossroads mall on what's currently AT the site, but on the town as a whole.

I dismiss the argument as false Andy because there will be no effect on the rest of Mahwah. I think you know that but won't admit it due to principle. I'll point to the Pilot project as a perfect example of resident "over-concern" and then... nothing, nada, zip. Nothing out of all the concerns about Pilot came true, and it's going to be the same with this project, it always is. It's a matter of past experience with the developments in this town. The hysteria far outreaches the reality.

JP

a) Please point me to any report where people "complain about ANY new office development" at the site, as claimed by you.

b) >> there will be no effect on the rest of Mahwah <<
According to your own writings, there WILL be an effect on the rest of Mahwah: jobs, tax base, improvement of a run-down site... So you are contradicting yourself.
The question is NOT whether there WILL be an effect - the question is in which way the scale tilts after the total of ALL effects are considered (many of which can't be assessed for a few years).

c) >> I think you know that <<
As the object of your mindreading attempt (and thus the ultimate authority), please understand my lack of confidence in your ability in that field.

d) >> concerns about Pilot <<
I can meet you half way there. AFTER the Pilot had been forced by the vocal and outspoken opposition to their ORIGINAL plans, to do away with overnight facilities and other aspects, and had to create a permanent fence, close the exit to Ridge Road, eliminate much of the truck spaces and reduce the the retail space, I felt that the overall improvements would be VERY DESIRABLE (not to speak of cheaper fuel than Valero). At that point, the Pilot opposition was coming down hard on me for stating precisely that when I openly refused to join their letter writing campaigns. But, despite them being overzealous in the second phase, they originally were essential in PREVENTING an undesirable outcome for the town.

You know what I mean by now by effects on Mahwah. Detrimental ones. There won't be any. Don't know what it's going to take to convince you, so I'll just leave it there and say I told you so after the thing gets built and is up and running for a few months.

Really, comparing a 40' x 35' spot in a residential neighborhood is quite disingenuous to a proposed muti-acre, mixed use development that includes office, hotel, theater, big box and recreation amenities. Is the will of the people your will?

The Master Plan? The "Master Plan" sounds so rigid and authoritarian. I say scrap the master plan and consider each and every new development project on it's own merits and faults. Things change over time and so should our so called "Master Plan".

Yes, a master plan is adjusted from time to time to keep it in line with changing times. However, it is the most important planning element for any town - because it assures property buyers that their money will be well spent.

When you buy a residential property you want to be certain that in 10 years time someone doesn't open a fuel station next door, or a supermarket. Changing the zoning arbitrarily would be anarchy and no one would want to own prooperty in that township anymore! Get it?

So, when a real estate investor "speculates" on the future value of a piece of "office building" land, then they have the option to either wait their investment to pay off - or sell it to someone else under the same zoning.

Or, the township can revise their master plan from time to time and decide that certain parts of town need different zoning to keep up with times.

But for the town to throw their own master plan in the wind absolutely SHOULD result in outrage (as it did), because is precisely the "basic law" that property owners, property neighbors and the rest fo the town have put their trust in when making their decisions to stay or come into town.

OK, so the council changed the Master Plan as I stated we should for this mall because they thought it was in the best interest for this part of town, yet that's not good enough for some people. How many other times in our town history was the MP changed and no one complained then? What bug got to people now that they have to B & moan and make things up to stop the changes? Deal with it. It was a legit change (as you'll eventually come to (have to) embrace Andy)

BTW, you make it sound like our council is so stupid that they can't control development without a master plan. Are you kidding me? The master plan is just a goal, it's not concrete.

>> so the council changed the Master Plan as I stated <<
As so you stated incorrectly <G>.
That's the whole point - the council did NOT go about it the proper way. They did NOT go through the process of involving the township planners to see if any revised master plan that INCLUDED a mall in Mahwah would be acceptable to the town.

They disregarded the master plan. In that case, I feel they should have been more humble about their own powers. They have been elected to make many day-to-day decisions year-round while representing the residents who elected them (and those who didn't). They are entering into annual contracts for the town - as they should, and if any mistake is made one year, it can be corrected the next year. While they were in their legal right - they were overreaching the trust that was placed in them by the majority of voters.

But for a major change in direction to a huge piece of property in town, and inviting in a type of business that previously didn't exist in town, they should have "checked their egos" at the door and polled their constituents to be certain they actually were in line with the will of the people -- BEFORE committing the town in perpetuity

Maybe a number of people moved into town (or decided to invest more in their properties in town rather than considering other townships) because they looked at schools, parks, services - and that it was a "no mall heaven".

Sorry, I stated that wrong. They changed the ZONING. When the council deems it appropriate to change the zoning for a section of private property, why is it that you then question this? This council was elected to make decisions like this in the interest of the town. How presumptuous that a person like Susan Chin find it necessary, because of some personal or political dislike of the mall for some reason, take it upon herself to start a group to pressure the town into changing their minds and getting her, her way, at the sake of the benefit to this community and country. You don't see ME formally organizing and using other people to get my desires to have the mall built, help the developers, and oppose Stop Mall do you? I literally could do it, but I personally would never be that presumptuous to "push" my agenda onto you like they (Stop Mall) do at our town hall meetings let alone file a lawsuit trying to block the development moving forward. Seriously?!? You keep talking about corruption, but who's making THAT assumption now. You say corruption, and I say it's normal town business and politics. Who are you and the stop mall people to decide it's corruption? Is anyone being prosecuted on corruption charges or even just sited with charges? Don't think so. You need to objectively see this from my standpoint and reassess this whole thing, because I can certainly see it from your viewpoint, and it's so totally false a position that I just have to reject it offhand.

>> You keep talking about corruption, but who's making THAT assumption now. <<
I wouldn't know since I've never used that word, nor even remotely implied that.

>> You say corruption <<
Really - when and where? You do have a vivid imagination because you keep arbitrarily attributing things to me!

>> objectively see this from my standpoint <<
I do. I have fully understand that you are very optimistic about the outcome - and that's fine. Some people are.
That doesn't make the alternate viewpoint any LESS valid - as both are based on speculation on wether the positive or the negative effects will ultimately outweigh the other.
I see both the potential benefits and the potential problems - and because there IS no certainty about the outcome, I remain concerned and thus wish the council would have sought the input from the rest of the town folks, because this town "belongs" to ALL of us.

How can you possibly say that we don't know the outcome of this mall? JOBS are the outcome! You can go back and forth with every other issue you'd like, but jobs being created is a definite. Just that reason alone is justification going forward with the mall.

And yet you supported the forcing of the referendum in the first place. That's hypocritical if you ask me.

Without audio during the ride through (the version I watched posted here), the video has absolutely no context to the discussion about the malls. You obviously lost a lot of people before the end because you did not speak during it to explain what we were looking at. If someone not familiar with the subject matter watched most of the first half of the video, they'd have NO idea it was all about. You need to edit it and add some dialog to explain things.

Plus, you did not focus at all on what you were trying to convey in the video. You showed us nice parts of the whole town which will not change one iota after the mall is up. I completely understand what you were trying to say, but you started with the assumption that your narrative is correct when in actuality it is false (that the mall will change our town in detrimental ways, or that life in Mahwah will somehow change for the worse. It won't) That is why I say six months after the mall is completed, you can go out and make the exact same video and other then the opening scene of the Sheraton site completely empty, it now has a pristine architecture there, and I say... so what? What's the difference to the REST of town of which some parts are miles away? Do a video of that! I'm guessing the videos will be 99.9% the same.

When the Patch posts a thread title like "Anti-Mall Group Releases 'Mahwah At A Crossroads' Video" what in the world David did you expect people to think was the subject of your video. You say it was only about showing the great things our town is about, yet you let them stick an anti-mall title on the thread. Which is it? Is the video supposed to evoke a disdain for changes to the town or not? Because if it is, then I repeat, your narrative is wrong and promoting total negative assumptions. (Now I feel like Sarah Palin, oh no). How about making the next video as neutral and showing both the PROS and CONS of the mall at Mahwah? Don't one-side it or it's just a protest video. Do you see MY point?

Adobe Premier and Adobe After Effects can be used for that. There are even free alternatives to these programs that function almost exactly the same way. They're fun to use too.

David, Don't listen to Hank. Hank should take the time and effort to make his own video instead of critizing yours. I like it and thank you for making it.

M R , Hank is exactly the type of people you SHOULD be listening to. He hasn't shut his mind down to compromise. You have.

Les Paul

Andy, you may want the mall decision to stand out as something extraordinary needing the will of the people to move in one direction or the other, but in reality, it's just another town/business decision that our town council and mayor are perfectly capable of making on their own FOR US. I totally believe the construction will actually have no detrimental effect on our community and obviously the council initially thought the same way I do or they wouldn't have changed the zoning in the first place. They were pushed to re-examine the issue by people who obviously don't trust the town council and mayor. And now, now it's become a bigger issue then it should be. A totally out of control issue by Stop Mall with lawsuits in the wings from both sides. For what?!? This whole discussion about increased traffic, the town becoming Paramus and so on, is just so off the wall that it's unrealistic, and makes those who spout those fears seem ridiculous....

... The council made their decision, people need to live with it, and everyone needs to help make this project something we can ALL be proud of instead of just complaining that they don't want it and continuing to complain about how all this happened in the first place and about how they were "slighted" because they weren't involved in the decision. I personally don't want you or anyone else in town the ACTING upon the validity of a decision of our council just because they personally don't like the decision. Questioning a decision at a town hall meeting is appropriate, but acting upon the decision to effect the outcome (via lawsuit etc...) is totally out of bounds. If people want to effect this town with their own personal agendas, then run for office and try to get voted in, or move out of the way and let things happen, because you are preventing me (as much a citizen of Mahwah as you are) and the rest of town from benefiting from that project.

Hank, i't seems you took my encouragement of David's participation somehow personally. getting to know David at town meetings, i truly am impressed by his thoughts and demeanor.
as for my comment quoted by you, i stand behind its rhetorical value, and the dangers it is warning against, 101%... furthermore i couldn't be more pleased by the comprehensive thinking it provoked. as a father, i worry for all young people.

For somebody who cares so much, it seems strange you wouldn't want to come to any meetings. I assure you they're worth it.

I just want a Costco. No need to ask questions. Would rather watch TV

Sort of a Rush Limbaugh moment.

Gottardo: "catastrophizing" (if you are playing along at home, the pot has just attempted to call the kettle black)

We haven't lost the point at all, that being that a group of around 400 people are trying to jam their personal desires down upon the decisions of our elected officials (from a base of close to 20,000 registered Mahwah voters) who were elected to represent us and manage our town. I resent the fact that the Stop Mall group feels the town should be managed around THEM, around their desires, thinking they had an overwhelming majority of support amongst the whole town, pushing their referendum demands upon the town thinking that would sway things. They've only managed to make the push against Stop Mall even stronger because the numbers (they imagined they had) are not there. We now know for sure their chances of winning this battle (as well as lawsuit) are far less certain then ever before. They have no legs to stand on. They will have no monetary damages due to the construction, they have no facts to back up their traffic claims, they don't even have the towns peoples' interest anymore (as seen by the ever declining numbers at the meetings), all they have is the attempt at emotional appeal about the town losing it's character. The character/charm of this town will not be impacted by this development simply because of the construction location, & as a matter of fact, will probably add towards it after the mall is built. Unless the project grinds to an abrupt halt due to some unrelated (to Stop Mall) technicalities, you're fighting a losing battle with costs to this town.

You want to talk about voters? How about the over 2000 people who VOTED in opposition to the mall on the ballot question. Quit playing the victim card, you're no victim, you just waited too long to speak up. The local govt should be the most responsive to the people they govern. Have you gone door to door in Mahwah and asked what people's opinions were? I have, and the majority are in opposition to the Mall. As for having no legs to stand on I admit that the local govt is shutting us down at many key points. But we still have the law suit and the possibility of equitable exceptions being made. This mall would open the door for more shopping centers and cause the future mentality of "hey its not as big as the crossroads mall so why not?" and that's when a town turns into Paramus. Paramus used to be mostly farmland, now its all big retail.

You may be thinking, that's a bigger mall, you'd be right,100k sqft bigger. But with the crossroads mall I predict that the campus of "town center" shops will become enclosed and be added on to. And then it will easily be a larger mall. As for fighting a losing battle, I refuse to consign this effort to failure. Even as the numbers are dwindling, I will still attend every meeting and encourage others to do the same. Because I care about the town I've lived in for most of my life and I don't want to see it ruined by commercial retail. It’s not even about the mall anymore, it’s about the local govt listening to the people. So like it or not, I'm going o keep speaking at town meetings to encourage them to reject the developer's application, which they can still do! If you want to speak up, by all means come to the meetings! Or are you like Hank who'd rather sit idly by and watch TV?

Here's the problem with what you are saying:

I'm not the victim, the victim seems to be the stop mall group as they are the ones whining about the destruction of Mahwah civilization as we know it. It's an emotional outcry with no factual basis which itself was actually "Johnny Come Lately" because the zoning changes had been in effect for 5 months before you managed to intimidate the council enough to change it back.

Your lawsuit is probably going to be thrown out because the judge will ask you what are your monetary damages if the mall goes through? What are they? Do you have that figure, or is the lawsuit just an emotional expression of your anger as I assume it to be? You'll need to prove damages. What are they? (and oh BTW, the developers, they WOULD have damages in the unlikely event you did manage to stop them, you don't)

As to your assumption that the mall will eventually be enclosed, (if it ever happened) that would have to go through the permit process and be approved before it could commence. I'm sure people like you would form a "Stop the Roof" group or something. - BTW, that is my one objection to this mall as it is. If you're going to spend the money on constructing something like this, why in the world wouldn't you enclose it from the start? But who am I to complain. -

So like you David, I'm going to continue to advocate for the mall and oppose the stop mall group as much and as often as I can here on Patch (unless they get sick of me and delete me). We get a much more public audience here where everyone can read what each of us say without the limitations and time constrains of the town hall meetings (which can get quickly out of control as we've seen in the past). If you want to continue to visit the belly of the beast, be my guest. I've seen enough of those mall meetings to know they aren't listening to any of you.

Not really, it doesn't matter if it's 400, 4000, or 40,000 Andy. It's a group of people trying to push their own personal agendas down our local government's throat. This group did this way before any referendum was implemented. way before any vote count was known. Way before we knew how the town really felt. Did it surprise you that almost half the voters wanted the mall? I bet it did. In talking to some people at the meetings, they indicated to me that they thought they'd have 90 to 95% of the community with them if they could just get this referendum on the ballot. Obviously their expectations were way off. They have no authority to force anything on anybody. You want to make changes Andy, run for a place in our local seats and make your case. In the mean time don't force your (anti-mall) agendas on me and the town. I have a new phrase for you anti-mall zealots. It's anti-American job creation.

From talking among friends and acquaintances I had figured that the opinion was about evenly split - so I'm not at all surprised that almost as many voters were in favor, as were against.

>> push their own personal agendas down our local government's throat <<
We ARE "our local government". A referendum is not pushing anything down anyone's throat - it's a poll to determine majority opinion, to avoid "minority rule".

There are different ways to conduct democracy. One is representative (which is how day-to-day business is conducted in town: we elect a council in hopes that they'll be attentive to the electorate and respect their will), and the other is direct (where the people decide on a matter by direct vote - which is what was done here). Both are perfectly valid and legal ways to come to a decision. No matter how the decision is made, their will always be a minority that has to accept the majority rule.

When your representative's don't fulfill your obligations, you can wait until the end of their term to replace them. If, however, time is of the essence, then a more direct path is needed - thus the referendum.

I beg your pardon. These representatives that we (both of us) elected DID fulfill their obligations. Need I remind you again that your view is no more valid then mine is (however much you want to believe it is), neither is the Stop Mall group's who were numbered 400 (eventually 2000 with the petition) BEFORE any referendum was taken. There would have been no need for the referendum if it was not forced on the town council. Why do you insist on being so presumptuous in saying that our council did not do their jobs. I say they did do their jobs, and so does most of this town, because they ELECTED them to do their jobs for the people in the first place. How dare you. There are people in this town that obviously think they can do a better job. OK, go for it and run. Let's see it. Put your money where your mouths are, but don't spend MY town's tax revenue defending (or siding with) ridiculous lawsuits.

>> your view is no more valid then mine is <<
finally we agree!

>> (however much you want to believe it is) <<
mindreading again?

Let me try an elaborate what I mean for you Andy, maybe I can articulate it better with another example.

When the town had new construction projects like the Stryker campus, and the huge stock exchange data center construction (projects equivalent to or even greater in size then this mall plaza (the mall is actually 50% empty parking)) there were no referendums asking us to approve or disapprove the construction even though zoning variances HAD to be permitted for both sites because they both did not totally conform to site specifics (just like the mall). For example, Stryker needed variances because they use cadavers on site and their use requires very strict adherence to health regulations, refrigeration, etc. Totally beyond normal office zoning. Stryker also has a foundry on site which was also outside the normal office complex zoning. The council weighed the pros and cons and zoned appropriately for construction to commence. Now... there might have been 400 people who were also opposed to both these developments, but because they weren't vocal enough to press their opposition, nothing happened and everything proceeded as planned after normal town hall meetings. Moving forward to the mall, a project also needing zone changes just like the others, someone (S Chin) decides she doesn't like the project and forms a hit group to intimidate the council into a referendum (which they knowingly made non-binding so it didn't matter what the vote was)....

So what I'm trying to make clear to you is that just because a project needed zoning changes does not automatically necessitate the need for a public referendum. The changes are no different or more elaborate then zoning changes we have issued in the past for other companies. The difference with this one is solely the emotional baggage that people seem to have with this project and I don't get it, because this development will make that site much better then it is now traffic or no traffic, and create jobs for people..

Nope, people were telling me they had the whole town behind them. They thought it be a landslide. Rose tinted glasses.

During Mahwah Day I ran into a group of STM (this was when they had maybe a couple hundred signs through town.) I said to one of them that I did not see any pro mall signs. He said that's because no one wants the mall.

Too funny.

Yes, it was significant math. And please, b*tch a lot more. The more you speak up the more ammo the lawyers have to use in court if necessary.

I also care deeply about all those things, but I also don't like to see a site becoming the town's eyesore when that site could be developed without effecting anyone else, provide hundreds of jobs, and be a nice place to shop and go for entertainment, and be an additional thing to highlight in a town value video. You against all that Gottardo?

Ridiculous isn't half of what I can be said about Stop Mall, David. It's beyond reality.