it's certain you are solely managing your own assertions JP... Bravo.
And BTW, monday night was a very good meeting!

You should know Gottardo, you're like a fixture there.

I appreciate you going to the meetings. Please put in a good word for Costco.

And Lowe's!

There's a Lowes in Paterson. Do you want Mahwah to become another Paterson?

You're exactly right. I go route 17 to work, and return via 287 to try minimize the time I spend in traffic. But now, I'll be boxed in either way. People from New York City and New York State are going to be coming here to avoid the sales tax on clothes as they do in Paramus. What a nightmare this would be.

Dave, not sure what you are questioning? but anywhere there is a society governed by the rule of law: Everything is paid for by taxes from Everyone... it is a belief system that mirrors the physical laws governing our universe and the moral laws governing our actions... and like the most artful constructions of nature (the spiral of the Conch Shell which matches the spiral of our MilkyWay Galaxy) there are always imperfections. our trick is to manage the imperfections the best we can.
So even though i'm not sure exactly what your question is, the answer is still "Yes".

i disagree JP, i think this proposed mall would mark the start of our lovely town's spiritual and cultural decline, a great sacrifice for no tax relief and quite probably significant financial costs to us all (documented examples of which exist from many nearby communities including Paramus). There is nothing this mall offers that we can't easily access within 15 minutes (or less) of our homes in any direction. Most of my peers would never "send" their kids to 'the mall' and they discourage them from 'hanging-out' at them. Small-talk with strangers can't solve anyone's lonliness. Hundreds or thousands of idoling cars produce incredibly poor air quality... traffic creates misery. For the majority of us it's plain; the mall has nothing of real value to offer while guarenteeing significant detriment.

What pompous crap you spew Gottardo. Maybe this mall doesn't offer you anything, however I think the hundreds of people employed by the construction and the daily retail and hotel businesses might just disagree with you. This mall isn't about YOU, it isn't about ME, it's about economic improvement for people in the area and this town.

Thank you for bringing this up. It is up to every parent to educate their children about the evils of Costco and Wegman"s. Talk to your children, have dinner with your children. Check their backpacks for roast beef, look in their room for giant cases of ramen. We must protect them!

It won't be a Paramus? I agree... as long as the Mall ISN'T BUILT!

they are going to build something there sooner or later,office or retail or maybe another giant hotel to block your view of the mountains.

How so? I don't know any locals who are going to stay at a hotel there unless they are partaking of the local action (if you get my drift) and they've tried for years to get an office complex there. Stryker could have build their large complex there from scratch, but even they didn't want that location. I keep saying this an it doesn't seem to sink in... No one wanted to be there except retail. If they did we'd already have an office building there and we wouldn't be talking about this.

The landowner was offered several times what he paid for this land within a few years of having purchased it. He said he 'only had interest in acquiring, not selling.' So don't feel to sorry for the Baron, JP. The township of Mahwah would give him back what he paid for it, plus his taxes (and maybe even a little interest). And they/we would have a fitting suitor for that land in little time... that is, if we didn't do something quite special with it ourselves.

Yeah, I think we've been saying that since Ford left in 1982, and the undeveloped land there is still in need of construction. The town should be thankful someone wants to use that land and increase our revenues instead of just languishing there.

Like I said, it's not about you. 10 years of construction (where'd you make that up?) would at the minimum, supply many many workers with a weekly paycheck and the local economy with a big boost in cash flow.

You're right. I told you that before. It's isn't about me, nor about you, nor any other single individual. It's about all of us collectively, it's even about how this looks for our country. It's about this town being able to attract new business and growing for the better of it's residents. It's about economic recovery and how this spot, in this town, was viewed as being worthy enough and prosperous enough for them to build there. It's about people working, opening businesses and making money. Don't you get that?!

In this case, something IS better then nothing. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING else wants to construct there. The mall is exactly what this town needs. It's an indication and a confirmation of the health and stability of our local area's economy. Why in the world would this township (which fortunately they don't) want to leave an unused, potential tax revenue and job generating, privately owned, deteriorating and languishing tract of land unused? Especially for the prospects of possible large cash flow for the area small business and citizens to happen now and many years into the future.

What is this discrimination you imply by saying "isn't the kind of jobs we need"? Do you mean low wage jobs and the "type of people" that that bigoted stereotyping implies? I personally would much rather see the Native Americans build a casino there if I had a choice, but I (and you) don't.

Cashier: $8 to $15.50 per hour
Stocker: $9 to $20 per hour
Food Service: $9 to $16.50 per hour
Butcher: $10 to $25 per hour
Cake Decorator: $9.50 to $18.50 per hour
Truck Driver: $11.50 to $22.50 per hour
Wholesale and Manufacturing Sales Representative: $11 to $25 per hour
Pharmacy Technician: $11.50 to $21 per hour
Optician: $11 to $26 per hour
Warehouse Supervisor: $14 to $26.50 per hour
Front End Supervisor: $13 to $29 per hour

Additional Benefits

In addition to a salary, attractive by industry standards, Costco provides generous benefit packages to employees including health insurance and retirement plans. Costco covers the bulk of health insurance plans, leaving employees to cover just eight percent of the premium. They also contribute an annual average of $1,330 per employee into retirement plans. Around 82 percent of employees are enrolled in the company’s healthcare plans and 91 percent are enrolled in retirement plans.

Businessman LaForet should be bending over backwards to get Costco and Wegman's here.

It's absolutely NOT the wrong commerce. I reject your premise. It's the right thing for that site and this town. Nothing else wants to go there, but you refuse to acknowledge that. Just because YOU don't like what it stands for doesn't merit even discussing. It's not about you.

BTW, I use JP because that's what people around here call me. Maybe if you'd listen closely and pay attention, you might recognize that nickname someday in your immediate vicinity.

Something else wanted to go onto the Crossroads when the landowner was offered three times what he paid for it!... And most of our elected officials are quite pessimistic about any net tax increase with all the empty retail spaces around and the piles of extra services & policing we'll need. i think they'd rather just collect on the land until something that fit our (never changed) master-plan came along. remember after mr dapuzzo had his short reign of power and changed what had never fit here before for the last 20 yrs, the new zoning was quickly rescinded and mr DP was waved good-bye.
BTW, i've lived most of my life answering to a nickname, for 52 years... it never crossed my mind to be JR on the patch.

Can you blame the developer? That site is a potential gold mine if it's done right.

of course i don't take it personally that the developer wants to do what he does... but like the larger half of mahwah, i believe its wrong for our community, and so i will do what i can to object. There are plenty of nearby places to shop shop shop and eat shitty foods and score drugs and get your car jacked and regret the traffic and be defeated by the lowest labotomizing cultural denominator that is "the mall".

I can see your point if that was an enclosed mall like Garden State. This isn't that.

I don't think those wages suck if medical is included.
Horizon BC/BS is pushing $15,000+ for individual and almost $20,000
if you want a really good policy
The average Costco worker makes $17 per hour plus bennies and retirement.
That's not too shabby for an empty nester,student or semi-retired. It could be a great opportunity for a second income or someone with a bad retirement plan.
I contend 17 per hour for retail is good money. What this does is keep the wages at the other mall stores higher so they don't lose good employees to Costco.

Gottardo, I hate to tell you, but that is the way capitalism works in this country. If you can't hack your competition, then you'd better make the investment in trying to do so or close shop. I bet Ramsey would LOVE to have this mall built there if they had the developer in their town. They're not stupid. You see all the new businesses going in on Rt 17 don't you. How ironic would that be. They build it just over the border in Ramsey, and Mahwah has the exact same situations without the tax revenue.

Also you are not killing local businesses.A retail job for someone returning to the workforce or someone who is underemployed or a senior goes back to the local economy. Even on the low end $20,000- $30,000 a year means a new roof, new driveway, a deck, eating out more often, a new car etc. Retail is the only place where regular people can find jobs. If an office moves in, it's already staffed. Retail has to actually fill all their positions from the locals.

if medical is in fact included and those wages aren't frozen near the bottom of the scale then costco's fine.

JP, my guess is 52% of Ramsey would be horrified if the mall was being built there.
As for my lesson in Capitalism, if felt overly simplistic.
ps, it's okay for us to disagree. let's all keep a sense of humor. and malls suck :O)

I don't think so. I think Ramsey would welcome the mall if only to tick Mahwah off.

Am i missing something? Does Ramsey not like us?... and would they cut off their nose in an attempt to spite our face?

Yes, there is (for many years) an "unofficial" rivalry between the two towns.

You can "spin" it any way you want, but it won't make the center have the "impact" you think it will. It's an open courtyard and pedestrian street concept. More then half the square footage is simply parking lot. Enormous is the Mall of America, not this project, LOL. Exaggeration all around seems to be a quality you opponents are good at.

JP,
Respectfully, you have several times now stated that the parking lot footage is included in the malls 650,000 sq ft.. you have to stop that because it either makes you look stupid (which you're probably not) or deceitful (which you're probably not). i know you want to pursuade public sentiments to see how you see, but we can only give you the benefit of the doubt so many times. Please, don't misrepresent the few facts we have.

Not saying that. What I am saying (and what you don't seem to get) is that the parking area takes up more land surface then the buildings. That's obvious from the drawings.

JP, what you're not getting is that every mall on Earth looks like that from above. Crossroads has made no concession to Mahwah by adding extra parking... in fact they are way short on parking for the proposed movie theaters, and are hoping to weasel some of the hotel parking into their calculations.

What you don't get is that the parking lot STILL takes up more then half the available land area even if it should be bigger or not. If they made more parking, it would just add to my point. This is NOT a "mega-mall" as you're so easily prone to throw around.

Respectfully, i have never been unclear about the size of the parking or the size of the mall... it's all way too big.

I just passed by there today to get an idea of the layout. Obviously if you take a GOOD look at it, it's NOT too big. It actually could be larger. There is much empty space provided for and it's not going to look huge especially because the heights of the buildings are low and the areas for pedestrian walkways, open areas, and parking spaces is very ample.

Respectfully, you're a savant JP (and i'll bet even more). my family and i have walked the Crossroads property many times; i've even written several poems inspired by trips out there with my children. living within a stone's throw of it these last twenty years, we thought we knew the setting rather intimately. yet you JP have realized the scope and specter of this mall venture simply by 'passing by'. i wonder, did you slow the car... or did 55mph do just fine.

Gottardo I wrote poems too
about that wasteland

I think I never felt so small
as when I walked through Costco
at the Mahwah Mall

Poems are made by fools like me
who cares
I just bought a 60 inch flat screen TV

Hank, ur really talented... and though i've never written a rhyming poem, you inspired me to contribute a stanza to yours.

Then wrote a ballad to express my lonely grief, and ate
an Itchy & Scratchy salad from Costco with roast beef

respectfully, cue music ;O)

I am deeply moved

You're right Gottardo, I do know what I'm talking about. You saying it isn't so, doesn't make it not so. There's reality and then there's your reality for which emotion plays a big part in your perception. I just realized that maybe the mall IS huge to you since you don't go to malls much (according to your previous posts), but by todays standards, this is a pretty normal size for an outdoor center like this. It's not even all in one place, it's separated into two main areas.

Just to help people out on their sense of scale for this shopping center, This is your HUGE mall in New Jersey... http://www.americandream.com and this is Mahwah's new mall... http://www.mahwahcrossroads.com Sometimes I get the feeling people think that first one is getting built here by the way they speak.

Inspired by JP's altruism, i'd like to help people get a 'true sense'. Posted in the minutes of our town Planning Board meetings is the Crossroad's Developers statement that the informationless cartoon illustrations they've provided have little to do with the actual mall we will recieve. As for the real size of the mall, just drop Paramus Park or Woodbury Commons on that spot (and of course all the chaos surrounding either one) and you'll have an accurate sense of the scale.

I'd rather not go to Paramus or Woodbury...too much traffic.

So G, let me get this straight, you're honestly trying to tell us Paramus Park is a large mall? Seriously?

respectfully JP, i'm not holding my breath that you'll hear our majority opinion this time over the last thousand times, but here goes again:
Whether Paramus Park is believed to be a 'large mall' is both subjective and irrelevant. What's significant is that most Mahwah residents don't want a P.P. or W.C. built on the crossroads site at such a great cost to our less comercialized, polluted & trafficked lifestyles and to so many of our residents. What is equally serious are the circumstances in which our town's zoning was changed on that site.

And I'll just point out, one more time if I may, that all that is irrelevant now. Plus, this isn't going to change your lives at all, similar to previous projects that didn't change your lives at all after the constant attempts to derail them.

Joe J,
all good suggestions you are making. it's important that we stay involved with our town council, planning board and environmental commission. unfortunately, if the developers win their battle to go forward with this mall, mahwah will be bound to the language of Ordince 1684. in my opinion this was written largely the way the developers wanted it and certainly without specific concerns towards low-impact or sustainability.
Council members DiGiulio, Spiech and Williams voted consistently "NO" to 1684.