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Do You Want A Mall In Mahwah?

A month before you will vote on the issue at the polls, vote on this week's Patch poll.

Four weeks from this Tuesday, township residents will vote in a non-binding referendum about their feelings on a 600,000 square-foot shopping plaza that a developer has plans to put at the intersection of Routes 17 and 287 in Mahwah.

According to a , the “Crossroads Town Center” will include an additional 175K sq.-feet of office space, and possibly a hotel. The developer said the size of the shopping center would be comparable to that of the Ikea in Paramus, will include one or two box stores and a movie theater, and would be pedestrian-friendly.

The town council that re-zoned the land in question to allow for the development this March. After that, a citizen group, the Committee To Stop Mahwah Mall, created a petition to get the question of whether or not the people of Mahwah want the mall to be posed on the November ballot. The petition was signed by 2,020 residents, and as a result the Town Council in August on the November 8 ballot.

The council also passed in March, moving the space back to its original zoning, for offices. However, the Crossroads Developer, LLC, for the mall one day before the council switched the zoning back. The site plan is currently undergoing professional evaluations, part of what the township before anything might actually be built.

There are currently filed against the township trying to stop the mall, one from the CSMM and one from the town of Suffern, NY.

Since the debate sparked about the mall seven months ago, people in town have expressed differing opinions as to why they may or may not want a mall in Mahwah. Those against the mall say it may lead to increased traffic problems, may increase crime, have negative environmental impacts, and turn Mahwah into “Paramus North.” Those in favor say it will bring in jobs, tax revenue, money to fix existing traffic problems in the area, and a “town center” to a place that is lacking a traditional “downtown.” Proponents also say retail is better than some of the other development options for the land, such as low-income housing.

So, for this week’s Patch poll, the question is, do you want a mall in Mahwah?

Hank October 11, 2011 at 01:29 PM
sure no problem here's the deal a big argument against was retail was poor paying jobs I posted Costco's salaries not too shabby What I want is for the Stop the Mall People to convince me with facts about why the mall should not be built not buzzwords like "traffic" or statements that start out "wait til you see..."
Andy Schmidt October 11, 2011 at 02:00 PM
That's the problem with traffic predictions. Everyone is just "guessing" - even the professionals will testify with two different answers, depending on which side hired them. So how are simple peopel like you and me going to make a decision? That's why I looked up (the often cited) Paramus mall. I had lived in Paramus a long time ago so I'm familiar with the traffic and the back roads. 770,000 sq ft - NO multi-screen movie theatre that constantly "revolves" people in and out). At the Paramus mall you have a dedicated overpass and highway exit, AND you have entries/exits to Ridgewood Avenue and Midland Avenue to/from Rt 17, AND you have local traffic using those two major thoroughfairs when THEY have to get to the mall. In Mahwah, all that traffic would have to be channeled to/from 17 through ONE eyelet. I'm NOT a professional - I'm just trying to use what I'm familiar with to get a sense what this would look like.
Hank October 11, 2011 at 02:11 PM
The builder was said it was the size of IKEA in Paramus that' a very small mall ok maybe we can figure this out does anyone know how many parking spaces are proposed at the mall?
Andy Schmidt October 11, 2011 at 02:17 PM
Pete, IKEA is listed as 550,000 sq ft - but it's a multi-story budling (I don't remember if it's 2 or 3 - haven't been there recently). If I remember correctly, there is a downstairs where they keep their inventory and the shop floor(s). So if it's 550,000 in 3 stories, then the FOOTPRINT would be 1/3rd (185K vs. 700K in Mahwah).
Ted October 11, 2011 at 02:23 PM
Comparisons to Paramus and their problems should be in context. They have 6 Malls all next to each other. Paramus, New Jersey is one of the nation’s biggest retail towns, boasting over six million square feet of retail space racking up some of the largest sales of any town in America. The area around routes 4 and 17 has been home (at one point or another) to no less than six enclosed shopping malls, including the legendary Bergen Mall.
Kevin October 11, 2011 at 05:37 PM
I think one thing everyone here has missed is when the employees of Sharp complain about trying to get work Sharp will move their shop here to a southern state. This will result in Sharp selling the property to this mall going in and that area will also become a mall and that is when the problems will double. More Trafic, service calls, flooding and motorists using my street as a short cut to 202 to get into New York. Or the builder already has in mind an amount they will offer Sharp to buy the property and they knew along how big they really wanted it. This I feel is a bad idea. When it happens I will get no satisfaction in being right because it means nothing, the mall is there at that point.
David Ingersoll October 11, 2011 at 06:21 PM
Rumor mill has it that Sharp is already contemplating or indeed has already decided to depart. Rumors only but....where there is smoke.....
Hank October 11, 2011 at 11:13 PM
I thought Sharp was mostly temps
Andy Schmidt October 12, 2011 at 02:46 AM
The mall developer and the mall opposition seem to disagree on even the most basic facts - e.g., is it the size of Paramus Park, or IKEA - or is it not. And the experts then side with whomever paid them to side with them - so that doesn't help folks like me figure out what's real. Add to that that the Patch is only showing a small fraction of the plan as the "opening" graphic for articles like this one. I finally took the time and brought up satellite views of IKEA, Paramus Park and the Crossroads property side by side, scaled them to the SAME factor - and here is the result: http://www.schmidt.as/Crossroads%20Comparison.jpg Finally I have a visual sense of the scope of this project vis-a-vis existing places that I'm familiar with. People still have to make up their own mind if they think its beneficial to Mahwah or not - but at least it helps me settle some of the underlying facts that have been debated.
Andy Schmidt October 12, 2011 at 03:02 AM
Kathy - to be fair, it took MORE than ONE vote to approve the rezoning. In fact, at the time of the vote, John DaPuzzo was already Mayor, and, although he has stated his support for the rezoning, he actually was NOT one of the people voting that night (he would only have voted to break a tie - and there was none). At the end of the day it was these four votes that made the rezoning reality: Samuel Alderisio, Harry Williams, Roy Larson, John Roth who at the time felt that it was not necessary to wait for the outcome of a public referendum before committing the township.
Hank October 12, 2011 at 12:27 PM
Pretty crazy Good pictures To me if its an IKEA size mall ...who cares But there was this whole insane Stop The Mall with accusations about politicians and petitions and passionate speeches. It seems including me, no one knows what the heck they are talking about! The Stop the Mall.com people have some splaining to do.
JoeRobertson October 12, 2011 at 12:46 PM
There are plenty of jobs to be had, Pete, without this monstrosity. I keep seeing signs in local store windows and in the newspapers. But people don't want to work. Why work when Obama will give them funemployment? Let's get to the real issues-- which are flooding, and even worse traffic than we have now. And if you think the developer is going to spend more money to build an arterial road (where would you put it, Pete?), you're in lala land.
Hank October 12, 2011 at 03:06 PM
Joe I just read your post I may be in lala land (which is off of McArthur Blvd) but there are not" plenty of jobs" Everybody answers in cliches "signs in the windows" and "monstrosity". Can someone please be specific once in a while? Coscto worker can make 60 grand if he plays his cards right read the salary list I supplied.
Kevin October 12, 2011 at 05:31 PM
The traffic is the big issue I have with this mall which will result in delayed response times for service calls from the police dept, fire and ambulance. Which is no fault of the responders. Traffic coming from New York to enter the mall is the first issue. StagHill is the only crossover going south that will lead directly to the mall. When that backs up it will push up to the 287 South and Rt 17 split which will result in major traffic mostly at peak hours and weekends. Anyone ever drive Rt 17 on Saturdays in Paramus? Not fun. New York has no obligation to New Jersey to change the lay out of their rounds and from what I have heard they will not. Fly over to 287 and 17 south will result in not being able to cross over to 17 South and NY traffic heading into NJ will not beable to get over to 287 South. When StagHill backs up every driver will head to 202, East Ramapo and McArthur Blvd to turn around and head North to get into the mall. This will result in back streets being flooded with cars not water which I also feel will rise in time. Higher then it has and faster. The second is traffic heading 17 North which backs up now to the Burger King on any given week day and more so on Fridays. This results now in motorists cutting through Burger King, the diner, TD Bank and the soon to be Honda dealership to access Island Rd to head north and eventually head down my street on Devine Dr to hit 202 and then out to Franklin Turnpike to go to NY. NY and NJ driver fly down my street.
Hank October 12, 2011 at 06:38 PM
That's a good point. Does anyone know how the southbound or NY shoppers are supposed to enter the mall? will there be a new crossover?
Hank October 12, 2011 at 06:38 PM
That's a good point. Does anyone know how the southbound or NY shoppers are supposed to enter the mall? will there be a new crossover?
David Ingersoll October 12, 2011 at 07:11 PM
At the meeings we were informed that the developer would not be making ANY improvements to the existing interchange. This is why you should go to the meetings and find out what is going on in YOUR town!!!! Before it is too late!!!!
Hank October 12, 2011 at 10:12 PM
Thanks for the info. . I'm just being the devils advocate because I have no life. I actually went into the crossroads today and the arterial roads are all 4 lanes they can hold a lot of traffic if needed. That property is huge. I suggest if you do go to the meetings to go to the proposed site too. On the way back i realized that there is already a 4th lane to exit 202 for a u turn. I went past Ramapo College at 4;30 there was no traffic on 2 lane 202 Question: There are 6000 students at Ramapo College and no traffic on 202 no traffic in the morning either. I go past Interstate Shopping every day including Satiurday ....no traffic What make you think this mall will back up to Burger king. How do you determine that there will be monster traffic. Can you tell me of a similar mall (Paramus does not count) that has the traffic you describe? If a school of 6,000 does not have a back up even on a 2 lane How many shoppers will it take to back up a 6 lane hiway? It does not make sense to me
Ted October 12, 2011 at 11:28 PM
Pete, Thank you for being the voice of sanity in this sea of silliness. Kevin has all kinds of expert opinions but unfortunately the REAL professionals like the Police Chief of Mahwah disagrees with him on repsonse time. And the Chief put that in writing, read more Kevin unless you have better creds? And lately he is a traffic expert with all manner of theories. The guys that do this have engineering degrees and are liscensed to practice and offer traffic opinions based on statistical models required by the State. Kevin, any creds beyond wholesale speculation here? And whiile I'm at it: Andy, my favorite chronic serial poster...Are you a registered voter?
Ted October 13, 2011 at 12:11 AM
Have you heard the rumors about Sharp's expansion??? What is your role here? Spread Manure?
Kevin October 13, 2011 at 05:25 PM
Ted thank you for your response, On Friday night the traffic backs up to Burger King, I live on Devine Dr and see it trying to get home on 17 North. Pete Paramus counts it is there and there is traffic, why would it not count? The Chief disagrees and that is fine. I would love to sit down with him and speak about it. That is how we all make better decisions on issues. Ted maybe you have insight for me to help me. The service calls will go up for this dept. I always see no activity reported in the paper in the police section for Mahwah. Why? When residents have their service calls stacted so officers can respond to the mall then residents will be upset. As far as engineering degrees for the experts if they exited the office and actually looked at what they were deciding on before they put the idea on paper they would handle the problem in a different manner.That is what I along with many others want, handle it the right way. I do have experiance in regards to service calls, response time and traffic. The traffic issues I have pointed out are real. Ted try driving it yourself. Down 17 South to Staghill and Crossroads exit over 17 into the area to be the mall and let me know if that can handle the mall traffic. You may or may not be an expert yourself but common sense should tell you if something needs to be addressed more then something else does. I look forward to your thoughts on the matter.
Hank October 13, 2011 at 07:04 PM
Paramus does not count because its many malls adjacent to each other with millions of square feet and dozens of driveways. This is an isolated mall and it says in the second paragraph "the size of IKEA in Paramus" Whether the mall is there or not the traffic will be backed up to Burger King on Friday so what's the big deal? and again 6000 Ramapo Students...no traffic on a 2 lane Interstate Ramsey...no traffic Kohl's...no traffic But somehow this mall will produce mega back ups every day. How can this be?
Andy Schmidt October 14, 2011 at 12:05 PM
Pete, if you are trying to sort through the arguments - why would you only doubt information provided by mall opponents, but take the developer's word ("size like IKEA") as gospel? Here the full plan (ommitted by the Patch from this article): http://hss-prod.hss.aol.com/hss/storage/patch/7583cb16dcc8a4ffe83fe55a30db7224 and here the size comparison to IKEA and Paramus Park: http://www.schmidt.as/Crossroads%20Comparison.jpg People will decide for or against the mall based on their own criteria - but I have a problem with the distortions.
Hank October 14, 2011 at 03:42 PM
I appreciate your reply. 6000 students Ramapo College...no traffic I was approached at the post office and again at Mahwah Day by people who wanted me to sign a petition. They talked a very good game of buzzwords like "traffic jams " traffic! traffic! traffic!....". And to me they are full of baloney. No facts just bs. And they got 2000 people to fall for it.I commend them. Now I was a trucker for 32 years and have delivered to every mall in the metro area. Every Macy's,Shop Rite, Pathmark,Costco, BJ's you name it and I've been there. I don't know much, but I do know traffic. No way daily massive tieups....aint gonna happen.... not off a 3 lane hiway. You won't even know a mall is there I live off MacArthur/Ridge with thousand of residents and employees and the "traffic" consists of 2 light changes maybe 3. But the "mall" will be our worst nightmare.. Everyone says "traffic" and they can't back it up...they just know its a powerful word I can back up "jobs" I know people who live around there don't want it. I understand you like it the way it is. But In 28 years in Mahwah I've learned that everyone gets a chance to get screwed by the town. I got screwed 4 times so far. I actually thought I was going to get flamed off the post. But then no one is backing me up either. I,m done. But I hope we are friends So from now on I'll be over at Winters pond walking a few dogs we'll talk about it there. Oh yeah I'll be over at the Homecoming Game too...I stand by the band side. Pete
Andy Schmidt October 14, 2011 at 04:41 PM
>> But I hope we are friends << Why not? All of us have different experiences, priorities and concerns - so we'll look at the same question with different eyes and favor different outcomes. And, in the process we learn alternate viewpoints or factors that we may not have appreciated up to then. (Chances are, I won't run into you at Winter Pond. Because of soccer practice, I'm more likely at Continental Soldiers Park, and of course, drive through your neighborhood most afternoons to pick up from Ramapo Ridge school.)
JoeRobertson October 27, 2011 at 03:07 PM
Yeah, right Pete. There will be no traffic impact. Yup. Uh huh. Sure. You have a mall with NO TAX ON CLOTHES on the border of NY State that has more than 8 percent tax, and you honestly think that's not going to attract more out of state cars? And you will have a multi-plex theater too. But you're, right, nobody will be driving their cars there, and there will be no additional traffic when the movies start and let out. All the movie goers will be riding their horses to the theater. OK.. just walk your dogs, live in you la-la land, and don't say we didn't warn you if this monstrosity gets built.
Hank October 27, 2011 at 03:21 PM
Joe Robertson, The ad clearly states 20,000 more cars daily 20,000 parking spaces? repeat your ad says line 1 :20,000 more cars daily btw Palisade Center website says it has 9.700 parking places your the people throwing major BS 15 mile radius: Paramus mega Mall,Riverdale mega mall,Harriman Mega Mall,Nanuet Mega mall, Palisades center mega mall 5 Mega malls in 15 mi but somehow an additional 20,000 cars are going to drop everything and come to Mahwah daily! please explain that is what the ad in VD times clearly states I'll walk some dogs now
JoeRobertson November 01, 2011 at 08:54 PM
First of all, you assume. Let me make this clear. I am NOT a member of the CSM, and have nothing to do with the ad or that organization other than to sign their petition. However, their ad is correct. Perhaps you don't understand how shopping works. You do not park in a space for 12 hours to shop. You may go in, shop for a half hour, and leave. Then, someone else will take your parking space. Secondly, the other mega-malls in NY State charge taxes on clothes. NJ doesn't.. so you will be getting people traveling over the Tappan Zee Bridge, and Rt 17 from Westchester and Orange County in New York state to the Mahwah mall to shop. And by the way, it's "you're," which means "you are" not "your" which is possessive. Your lack of education is showing. Go walk your dogs.
Hank November 02, 2011 at 12:24 PM
Interstate and Kohl's sell clothes where's the NY mega traffic?...explain Prof. Joe 6000 Ramapo Students on a 2 lane rt 202 .... no traffic...enlighten me huge mix of commercial/residential/Home Depot/ MacArthur/Ridge where's the doomsday traffic? speak to me o learned one
David May November 07, 2011 at 01:12 AM
Check out video footage from the recent "Meet the Candidates" event held by the Mahwah Tea Party http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhyWXEU5IsE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

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